Ding on the AMA? Fine.
Ding on the Democrat Party? Fine.
Ding on the President? Fine.
Ding on physicians? Fine.
Ding on the Congress? Fine.
Ding on Organic Food Junkies? No. Not fine. Get people PISSED!
Note to self... organic stuff is organic and therefore good. Piss on the science. Off to eat some Cheetos.
PS Get well Radgirl.
I always piss off my liberal friends by bagging on Organics. It's a total scam, and not only that, there have been studies done showing that their "safe" pesticides are in way higher amounts than those found in regular veggies. (Their safe pesticides aren't safe in the heavy amounts they have to use due to their ineffacacy.) Besides that organically grown veggies are so wasteful and inefficient, they're not going to feed the world. It's GMO's and high-tech farming that's going to save the day...
ReplyDeleteHey, it ain't easy be'in cheesy.
ReplyDeleteThanks. I am going to get my staples out today (22 of them!) It still hurts a lot more than I expected. I would trade the entire bottle of oxycodone my doctor gave me for some toradol. I would make a horrible drug addict!
ReplyDeleteI love junk food, but...I totally believe in organic methods.
ReplyDeleteOrganic growing is the only method that enriches the earth...that gives back most if not all, what it takes out in the form of produce. If you don't know this, you are ignorant.
GMO's enrich only the company and executives that have made them. They destroy the small farmer financially. Good reading: "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle" by Barbara Kingsolver; "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan.
I don't believe in forced birth control/sterilization/abortion to control population but this is one of our problems. The future will see a smaller population (we're all living in a petri dish and one day will exhaust it's capacity)....only a matter of time.
Liz,
ReplyDeleteWant some Organic Goodness, try some Aflatoxin... Or Enterococcus, or Hepatitis C Virus,,, All natural.
You don't believe in Forced Birth Control/Sterilization/Abortion to control the population? How else are ya gonna do it...People figure out those Zyklon B showers aren't for freshening up...
If pathology has to send out "funny looking cells" to a specialist, how long does it take to get the results? Do "funny looking cells" equal possible cancer? I really should have asked more questions.
ReplyDeleteAs I said, it's only a matter of time before the population issue takes care of itself...
ReplyDeleteNot to mention all those who are doing their best to shorten their lives by not practicing preventive health (fast food junkies, smokers, etc)....and another thing to look forward to is complete or near-complete antibiotic resistance. I don't doubt that someday, maybe not in my lifetime (but who knows?) there will be a pandemic that will handle everything.
Illnesses such as Hep C, MRSA, AIDS, can all be avoided by practicing preventive measures (good handwashing, staying out of the hospital by taking care of oneself, monogamy (because condoms are so imperfect), etc)....but people don't do it. We will do ourselves in. I'm not happy about it, but I do expect it. It's just common sense.
Who are you planning to forcibly sterilize/abort? That's just not anyone's job to enforce.....there's no one qualified to do it.
Liz, that's a load of bullshit. The science just doesn't back up what you're saying. You get bonus points for sounding really good and emotional though.
ReplyDeleteI see that you have actually nothing to say about the actual methods employed in organic farming or anything particularly nifty to say about the proven inefficiencies of the process. You just think that the normal people in the world are going to stand by and watch babies starve because it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy that mother earth is functioning under a more inefficient process? That's pretty selfish isn't it. How's that religion workin for ya?
Organic farming doesn't enrich the earth any more than regular farming. They use huge amounts of pesticides like rotenone which are deadly to fish, insects(even the pretty friendly ones), etc. But hey! It's natural!
The beauty of hi-tech farming and GMO's combined is that they use miniscule amounts of fertilizers and pesticides compared to either organic or regular farming and they have incredible returns in the amount of food produced.
So producing tons of food to feed starving, and not polluting...but you hate that idea don't you. WHY??? You don't want that really do you? Because you've been taught to fear (and you've been brainwashed.) You're controlled by your fear and your stupid emo-enviro prophets.
Hey Radgirl. So sorry you're hurting. Hoping that path comes out clean.
ReplyDeleteYou can always tell when your points are scary to others....they start getting snide and snarky.
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to believe anything that I say. You can take a bath in chemical fertilizers and pesticides if you so choose. I have my own viewpoint and I like to engage in thoughtful debate.
Unfortunately it's just not possible to do so in the blogosphere...because most responders just want to smash any opposing viewpoint.
For myself, I think I see how things work. I'm not romantic about it. I think Nature is stronger than anything humans can come up with.
You don't agree? I don't care!
Have a great day!
Liz, I'm not afriad of your viewpoints. But I do get irritated at the whole holier-than-thou-please-join-my-cult-if-you'd-only-read-what-I-have-then-you'd-finally-get-it attitude.
ReplyDeleteHi-tech farming and GMO's use less pesticides than either organic farming or regular farming. That's protecting the earth and good! It's also good for people. The big farmers like it too because it's less waste and saves them money. So why is this bad? If you want to debate it, adress it. Why is this a bad thing?
Chemical fertilizers and pesticides aren't bad any more than medications are "bad." They are what they are. Toxic in large amounts and very good in the right doses.
And we can at least agree on one point. Nature IS stronger than anything humans can come up with. That's why we don't stand a snowball's chance in Hell of doing anything about climate change. It's been going on for millenia, man's too puny to stop the laws of the universe and arrogant to think that they should try.
I just love it when Amy gets her feathers all ruffled... And Liz, Tobacco's natural last time I checked,,, grows in the ground, just like Marriage-Wana or Peanuts..
ReplyDeleteDear Amy: I think I can produce as many studies (scientific and otherwise) that prove the goodness and efficacy of organic practices as you can produce that "prove" the opposite. I simply don't/won't trust any studies paid for by Monsanto and other giant, non-benevolent, for profit only, corporations. I seek out more moderate/objective proof. But you are as firm in your views as I am in mine...therefore it's not likely to be beneficial to continue this debate.
ReplyDeleteDear Frank:
I never actually stated that tobacco is inherently evil. Or marijuana, or opium poppies. I'm a non-tobacco, non-drug user (but I do like a nice chardonnay or occasional margarita). I actually happen to have a moderately liberal view towards the use of these substances. The trouble with tobacco is that those who use it tend to go overboard by smoking 2+ packs a day (like my Mom, who died of lung CA 19 years ago). The trouble with stronger drugs (including alcohol) is the irresponsible behavior of so many of those who partake.
I am no organic saint. I eat fast food when I want to, not usually more than once a week. I love cheese (full of fat). I love beef and chicken. But I know what makes sense when I see it. Building the soil, returning food waste back to the soil to increase soil health and decreasing the use of chemicals can only be a good thing. What's cheaper and less likely to be carcinogenic.....compost or chemicals? Elementary.
Why is it all or nothing with you people? Geez.
I'm also an avid gardener who has use Miracle-Gro from time to time, and pesticides (not in the last few years, though). As the health of my garden soil has improved, the quality and quantity of the produce has also improved. There are virtually no pests in my garden, therefore I don't need pesticides (the few I do see are easily hand-picked and dispatched, though squirrels and deer are not so easily taken care of...but pesticides wouldn't work on them anyway). Granted, this is my anecdotal experience and not a scientific experiment, but the results speak for themselves.
Liz,
ReplyDeleteYou're right, if people like you get your way, there will be a Malthusian disaster...
...too bad that it'll mostly be poor Africans(and Indians and Chinese) who die from it, eh? And due to I just can't resist using a leftist tactic...riddle me this...what's your problem with people of color and the poor? And how about you're hatred of the environment(after all, Organic methods have to use more land, say goodbye to more of that sweet amazon)?
If you can't tell, I definitely side with Norman Borlaug on this issue.
P.S. Sorry I havn't been around. The Obama healthcare plan put me into a bit of a depression over the last month, but I'm back and better than ever.
The level of ignorance demonstrated related to organic methods in these comments is pretty amazing!
ReplyDeleteAgain, it doesn't have to be all or nothing.
Human beings with their chemicals and tinkering and nuclear weapons....that's the problem.
I'm a political conservative, overall...and yet I can see beyond the end of my nose.
Going to have to go with Liz, I think on this one....and NOT just because I am madly in love with an old anarchist punk organic sheep farmer....even though that is part of it....LOL
ReplyDeleteI, like Jefferson, am a big believer in the small family farm. As an ardent Libertarian, I abhor the concentration of corporate power just as much as the concentration of federal power.....I abhor corporate welfare just as much as "gotta support all my baby's mamas" welfare. What Monsanto is doing in Europe and what they are doing here to family farms is nothing more than thug politics as usual. I mean they even wormed their way into the Cap and Trade fiasco with it's advocating of "no till" farming which will require heaving dependence on pesticides (specifically "Round Up")....which, of course, Monsanto produces.
And I don't have a PhD in agriculture or anything..but making seed saving illegal.....well that does NOT sound like it's in the best interest of saving the Third World.
But in the end..as a Libertarian I will ALWAYS support someone's freedom to do things that I disagree with....so people can have their GMOs and their factory farmed meat.....I don't really care...just don't destroy the small independent family farms in the process.
Small family farms are wonderful. When I garden, I also use almost no pesticides. It's the best way to do it. It is also sad to see small mom and pop farms bite the dust. But, times, economics, and the world change. It just happens.
ReplyDeleteAs far as seed saving, it's the same thing as with big pharma. Some of those crop varieties cost so much to produce they have to protect their investment or it's not worth it. If they don't get a return, there's no incentive to breed/engineer the bigger, tastier, healthier, more productive, etc. varities.
Radgirl: I hope you are feeling better soon and that your tests come back clean!
ReplyDeleteAlso, wanted to share something I heard. Apparently the White House website is encouraging people to report back to them the addresses of blogs that are disseminating "disinformation" about Obama's health plan (including the bit about his saying he favored a single payer system). Nice.
Jennifer, thanks for letting me know I'm not alone out here...:D! My son keeps telling me I'm a Libertarian...I guess I might be.
ReplyDeletePeggyU, that's frightening and also not surprising (to me, anyway). I don't like the way things are going, at all.
Amy, I don't like change any more than anybody else but I do acknowledge it's inevitability and try to adapt....It helps that I think there's more to life than this life.
Have a great day, everybody!
"The beauty of hi-tech farming and GMO's combined is that they use miniscule amounts of fertilizers and pesticides compared to either organic or regular farming and they have incredible returns in the amount of food produced."...Amy
ReplyDeleteAh, Amy I'm a third generation farmer and I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points.
Hi tech farming and GMO's use more fertilizers then organic farming. Oh and Hi tech farming and regular farming?...are one and the same.
Supposedly organic farming only uses manure from animals and green manure crops for fertilizing. Oh sure they also supplement with crushed limestone, rock phosphate and other soil admendments. Things that are "naturally" produced.
Hi tech farming or regular farming uses fertilizers that chemically are the same BUT they have been processed and are attached to a salt molecule. (For a more rapid dispersion in the soil.) And over time the soil becomes salty; which taints the soil.
Now at this point I will agree with you... organics will not be able to feed the world. Using organic fertilizers to "balance" the soil is a cumbersome process. The natural fertilzers are basicly rocks. And when they break down they will be able to disperse their nutrition to the plants.
Have you ever seen rocks dissolve? Yeah I didn't think you wanted to wait that long.
Using organic farming to feed the world will cause massive loss of life. But maybe thats the hidden agenda of these liberals.....
But if we continue to look to corporatins to save us and to feed us....
The problem is not black and white. Especially when it involves a multinational corporation that is raping our pocketbooks.
Steve
Thanks for the response Steve. You know my Dad used to help my great-grandpa farm about 2000 acres of soybeans when he was a kid. He hated it so much that he became an accountant. I was always so sad about that. They sold the family farm about 10 years ago.
ReplyDeleteWhen I say Hi-tech farming, I'm referring to the use of GPS mapping and soil sampling systems that significantly reduce the amounts of fertilizers applied to fields, thereby reducing runnoff to the watershed. (In college I worked for the USDA in a macroinvertebrate lab, so stream health is always near and dear to my heart.)
GMO varieties are engineered to withstand pests or as the case of BT corn have resistance built into them thereby reducing pesticide use. I can't see how either of these things are bad, although you are absolutely right that it isn't black and white. There are drawbacks to GMO's, but I think their good far outweighs the bad.
How common is farming with the GPS mapping and precision dosing of fertilizers as opposed to the old spray the whole field methods?
Monsanto (among other large corporations) is successfully suing farmers for "stealing" their patented GMO's when farmer's crops are cross pollinated by the wind. Many of these farmers are going out of business.
ReplyDeleteOnce Monsanto puts all the little guys out of business, the only available seed will be GMO's. This means seed saving will be impossible, small farmers, gardeners, third world farmers....they will all have to purchase seed every year from Monsanto, who can set prices as it sees fit.
Think it can't happen? In England the only seeds lawfully sold are listed on the National Seed List. It costs a lot to secure government approval for a particular seed, so only large corporations are able to secure a place on the list. You're a small farmer with a new variety to market? You're out of luck. Lots of varieties have already been lost. Iraq also has outlawed many varieties of seed, making it illegal to sell, trade, or grow them there. Actually, belonging to the European Union means that only seeds on a country's approved list are legal to sell. This is a direct attack on any citizen's personal freedom to farm, garden, save and/or share seeds with others.
Another danger posed is the threat of worldwide famine. GMO's are resistant to pesticides...but what about the pests that will soon be resistant to pesticides? All it will take to destroy the world's food supply, once it becomes a giant monoculture of GMO's, is one superbug or disease.....Ireland's potato famine redux.
www.paulkingsnorth.net/plot14.html
So, GMO's aren't inherently evil....it's how they will be (and are being) used that is the problem. This may all sound farfetched, but it isn't.
I hope it doesn't happen, but I for one will be hoarding heriloom varieties of seeds for the rest of my life.
All right Liz. I can't find ANYTHING talking about Monsanto suing for pollen except on GMO's are going to kill us web sites. There's nothing in the MSM about it.
ReplyDeleteAs far as your fear of a "monoculture of GMO's", you seem to have an inherent misunderstanding of what GMO's are. They are simply plants with regular old plant DNA in which genes which are pieces of DNA are inserted. Now people get really freaked out about this and I don't understand why.
DNA is DNA. The building blocks of genes are the same from plants to people. It's all in the combinations. The only thing that genetic engineering does is recombine them to cause certain effects in an organism. The organism already has the potential to spontaneously have these traits because the building blocks of DNA are the same.
Here's an example. Scientists thought it'd be really helpful to develop a rice that had natural beta carotene in it to provide better nutrition to impoverished nations inwhich rice makes up a large portion of the diet. They spent tons of money genetically engineering this crop. Wouldn't you know it, somebody went to the rice seed bank, which stores basically every type of rice and natural mutants and they found a little golden rice with a gene that formed spontaneously without the help of man to do the same thing.
This was lucky. Genetic engineering just speeds up natural processes. It's not frigtening. And as far as your fear of monocultures of GMO's. That doesn't even make sense. There are already tons of pests that are resistant to pesticides which is why people keep trying to find new and better ones. That's why the big evil monsanto came up with BT corn. They inserted a portion of a bacteria or fungus(I can't remember) into corn that killed caterpillars so they wouldn't have to use pesticides. Caterpillars being the biggest pests of corn.
As far as Monsanto sueing people over pollen contamination, I agree with you, they get too proprietary. I'm not comfortable with them patenting or copyrighting parts of genomes which has actually been a huge debate. I think if it can spontaneously occur in nature, which every genetic combination can, they shouldn't be able to patent it regardless of how much money they spent to develop it. If your pollen's wafting on a breeze, to me that's reckless abandonment, and maybe that farmer(if in fact he did exist) should have counter-sued them for pollution of his crop with their genes.
Oh, and the National Seed List thing in England probably isn't a monsanto thing, although i'm not arguing that they're saints or anything. England is a socialist nation, how else do you think they're going to make all that tax money if they don't control everything? That's just another way to get their hands into your pocketbook, and I'm sure it could happen. Let's just pray that it won't in America.
ReplyDeleteDear Amy:
ReplyDeleteIn England the approved seed list was a 1970's condition of joining the EU....so most of Europe is bound by this type of list. Monsanto and the US were directly involved in Iraq's recent outlawing of certain/many varieties of seeds (too many websites to reference, just Google "Iraq Monsanto Bans Seeds"...not much reporting by any mainstream journalist....but journalism today is not what it used to be).
As far as England being a Socialist nation....haven't you heard? The 'esteemed' news magazine, Newsweek, has announced (several weeks ago) that the USA is now a Socialist nation! Yippee!
And, how else do you think we're going to pay for all the universal health care we're promising to provide if not by taxing/controlling the holy crap out of any American with a job....including small business owners and farmers?!
I think I you were just making my point right?
ReplyDeleteI totally love the part in a debate when it turns out we've been on the same page all along! Are you kidding?
ReplyDeleteBut, enough said on this topic for now! Have a great weekend! :D